auto or manual? 4 cyl or V6?
Good Starter, Bad Starter
So the Hydra 1st Gen is acting up again. New battery, new Starter, both tested as good. Ive checked the wires, voltage is fine all over on the battery end and starter end. I also checked the posts and they are on tight. It seems to be doing this every few weeks. It will work fine, then out of the blue there will be slight pause before the starter engages just once. It will work fine for about two days. I go to crank it on the third morning and nothing, just the single click of a dead starter. I pull it out, get it tested, it works fine. I reinstall it and nothing, take it off again, put it back in, and then it will start up and be fine for a few more weeks. Then back to step one. There is no oil seepage in the solenoid nor on the starter, for being under the vehicle its relatively clean. Anyone seen anything like this before? I am at my wits end and if I cant get this fixed Im going to have to buy a new vehicle as its unreliable as all get out. Thanks.
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Ah sorry, its a 2000 Auto V6
A few things to check:
There is a 40 amp fusible link in the "fuse and fusible link" box. Check the wiring in and around that link.
Try moving the gear selector lever in and out of park a few times to see if that makes it start. There is a "park / neutral position" switch (PNP switch) located on the transmission that controls voltage to the starter via a PNP relay. The starter relay (control side) will get no voltage if that switch / relay is not working properly.
The control voltage for the PNP relay passes through a 10 amp fuse in the fuse box (#12).
If you have power door locks there is also a theft warning relay that will keep it from starting (it keeps the control side of the PNP relay from working).
There is a 40 amp fusible link in the "fuse and fusible link" box. Check the wiring in and around that link.
Try moving the gear selector lever in and out of park a few times to see if that makes it start. There is a "park / neutral position" switch (PNP switch) located on the transmission that controls voltage to the starter via a PNP relay. The starter relay (control side) will get no voltage if that switch / relay is not working properly.
The control voltage for the PNP relay passes through a 10 amp fuse in the fuse box (#12).
If you have power door locks there is also a theft warning relay that will keep it from starting (it keeps the control side of the PNP relay from working).
Thanks for the suggestions, the 40 fuse is in working order (I even tried swapping it with another just in case) and the wires going to and from the box seems fine, I tried the switching of gears, it actually got it to start once a few months ago but it was a one time fluke, and I checked over all the fuses in the box (Just to be sure) and they all seem fine.
I should also note that Ive got a remote starter switch connected to the starter solenoid and the Positive terminal (not normally, just when I need to test it), which in order to "kick" it off the past few times I would turn the starter over with it and then it will work. When I connect it I still just get a solitary "click" but the Starter is good (I just got back from the part store where they tested it 3 times and every time was a success).
Thank again for the assistance. This thing is driving me crazy, if I didn't live in the South I would be tempted to look for a cliff to push this thing over. >_<
I should also note that Ive got a remote starter switch connected to the starter solenoid and the Positive terminal (not normally, just when I need to test it), which in order to "kick" it off the past few times I would turn the starter over with it and then it will work. When I connect it I still just get a solitary "click" but the Starter is good (I just got back from the part store where they tested it 3 times and every time was a success).
Thank again for the assistance. This thing is driving me crazy, if I didn't live in the South I would be tempted to look for a cliff to push this thing over. >_<
I dont know if it would matter but on both 40 amp fuses in there seems have some slight corrosion (green and white copper kind) but I was able to clean some of it off and the link is still there unbroken, so Im assuming they are still fine.
Did you ever check / change the PNP relay the last time you had this problem? Check for control side voltage. If you have no voltage at the yellow wire pin 2 to ground, then your PNP switch is bad. If you do, then your PNP relay is bad.
The voltage for the starter goes through the ignition switch right to the PNP relay. If it's not working correctly your truck won't start unless you hotwire the starter.
The voltage for the starter goes through the ignition switch right to the PNP relay. If it's not working correctly your truck won't start unless you hotwire the starter.
No I dont think I ever checked the switch, im assuming its somewhere near the transmission? The Haynes Manual isn't very clear on its location... Would that stop the starter from starting even though Im bypassing the ignition system? With the switch I am running power directly to the solenoid and Im still getting the single click.
Also I did a scan with my OBD II Reader and I've got no codes coming out.
The factory manual shows the location of the PNP switch here on page AT-99:No I dont think I ever checked the switch, im assuming its somewhere near the transmission? The Haynes Manual isn't very clear on its location...
http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Xterra/2000/at.pdf
The PNP relay location is under the hood, as shown here on page EL-259:
http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Xterra/2000/el.pdf
(I don't think you will get a code from a malfunctioning PNP relay, but I'm not sure)
The wiring diagram for the starting system is here on page SC-11:
http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Xterra/2000/sc.pdf
Once again, the SC system is relatively simple. There aren't too many components at play, but you need to verify that they are ALL working, otherwise you are just chasing your tail checking the battery and starter over and over again.
Use a multimeter and check for voltage at all components along the circuit until you find a place that doesn't when it should, or does and the component doesn't work. You ultimately are looking for voltage at the control side of the starter solenoid when the key is turned. Start there and work your way back.
You aren't bypassing the ignition system, you are bypassing the starting system and its associated relays and switches. All that does is verify what you already know: your starter motor works. You still may have a problem with your starter relay, your PNP relay, your theft warning relay, your ignition switch, and all the associated wiring. (edit: start by checking your starter relay for control power first. If it has voltage to the control side, and voltage to the positive power side, then it can be nothing else but the starter relay and / or the negative battery cable)Would that stop the starter from starting even though Im bypassing the ignition system? With the switch I am running power directly to the solenoid and Im still getting the single click.
Ahhh I see, fantastic, thank you, Ill check these things out then. Many thanks, Ill report my findings.
Just to continue my previous chain of thought:
IF you get a single click when you hot wire the starter motor with your remote starter switch, then you need to check your starter solenoid (edit: I guess it depends on where you are hooking the remote up to). I'd be willing to bet they aren't testing the solenoid, they are just hooking the motor up to a power source to see if it turns. Your starter solenoid may be intermittent.
It would also be a very good idea to check the engine block side of your negative battery cable (in case you didn't already) and the positive lead to the solenoid. A weak battery can cause a solenoid to click, but it's not likely to be intermittent unless there's internal damage at one of the posts causing a massive voltage drop. A bad ground cable will keep both your key and a remote starter from working.
IF you get a single click when you hot wire the starter motor with your remote starter switch, then you need to check your starter solenoid (edit: I guess it depends on where you are hooking the remote up to). I'd be willing to bet they aren't testing the solenoid, they are just hooking the motor up to a power source to see if it turns. Your starter solenoid may be intermittent.
It would also be a very good idea to check the engine block side of your negative battery cable (in case you didn't already) and the positive lead to the solenoid. A weak battery can cause a solenoid to click, but it's not likely to be intermittent unless there's internal damage at one of the posts causing a massive voltage drop. A bad ground cable will keep both your key and a remote starter from working.
Thanks, Ive got the switch hooked up to the Solenoid, I made sure to check diagrams and Ive got it connected to the soldered portion (I've got it to crank up connected to the same place in the past). I checked the relay and sure enough both the Reverse and Neutral register as Park, the rest register as they should. Would that prevent it from starting? That Switch looks like a beast to get out.
Yeah I checked the voltage of the battery in multiple places and its gets essentially the same amount all the way down to the starter, maybe 0.1 less.
Yeah I checked the voltage of the battery in multiple places and its gets essentially the same amount all the way down to the starter, maybe 0.1 less.
Not that this is the issue, but voltage isn't the only thing you need. You need amperage. A damaged battery can show 12 volts, but have a massive voltage drop when you put a load on it. If you had the battery replaced then I wouldn't consider the battery to be the problem, but that doesn't mean that the wiring is up to par. I know we've gone over this before, but corroded battery terminals or damaged connections can cause intermittent problems. They can usually be detected by shaking them around. Broken copper strands in a large cable will still show 12 volts but may not "carry" the required amperage (resistance too high).Yeah I checked the voltage of the battery in multiple places and its gets essentially the same amount all the way down to the starter, maybe 0.1 less.
Assuming your battery and truck relays (PNP, theft, etc) are ok:
If you still can't get the starter motor to operate using a remote starter button that bypasses your starter relay (essentially hot wiring it), then you either have an intermittent problem with your starter, or your negative battery cable. I can't think of anything else it would be.
If you turn the key and have voltage at the control side of the starter solenoid with the key held in the start position like you should, then as I mentioned before, the problem is likely with your starter solenoid. If you have voltage at both sides of the "power" high amp side of the starter solenoid when the key is turned, then you have a problem with the starter motor.
I guess one thing you could try to eliminate the possibility of a weak starter motor is to remove it from the engine and see if your truck can turn it over.
The Relay is not registering as it should, when I put the truck in Reverse and Neutral the relay is registering them as Park (D, 2 and 1 read as they should). So once it stops raining (just my luck) Ill try and Tetris that switch off and test it to see if I need to replace it.
Ill take a look at the amps, I replaced both terminals and they are quite snug on the battery posts (one of the other times I had this issue it corrected the problem for a little while).
Ive taken the Starter (with the Solenoid attached as they are essentially one unit) to the part store it will turn over every time, is there a way to test it separately to show them its defective?
Once again thanks for your help, you are truly a lifesaver.
Ill take a look at the amps, I replaced both terminals and they are quite snug on the battery posts (one of the other times I had this issue it corrected the problem for a little while).
Ive taken the Starter (with the Solenoid attached as they are essentially one unit) to the part store it will turn over every time, is there a way to test it separately to show them its defective?
Once again thanks for your help, you are truly a lifesaver.
Make sure you check both ends, not just the battery side connections.I replaced both terminals and they are quite snug on the battery posts (one of the other times I had this issue it corrected the problem for a little while).
Yes, if you apply 12 volts to the control side of the solenoid, you should get continuity (measured with a multi meter) across the two high amp posts of the relay if it's working correctly. Ground is the starter body.Ive taken the Starter (with the Solenoid attached as they are essentially one unit) to the part store it will turn over every time, is there a way to test it separately to show them its defective?
An old skool way to get a truck started with a bad solenoid was to short those two posts together with a screwdriver.
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