What exactly do front spacers do for you. Ive read everything from increased wheel articulation to a "leveling effect" with the rear of your X. Im not even sure what a leveling effect is.

Will putting 2" spacers in the front greatly affect my on road handling? are there any significant of-road performance gains or is it just to make the truck look higher off the ground?

any replies would be greatly appreciated.

OK - A spacer (In this context) is just a thing that goes in between your coil spring's top, and the upper coil cup, essentially making it like your coil was 2" longer when holding up the truck. (It picks you up 2", the thickness of the spacer)

This type of coil spacer lift is a Suspension Lift (SL), 2" SL to be specific...but requires a 2" lift in the rear to match.

As X's come from the factory with their butt's a bit higher than their noses, so that when you get passengers or cargo in there, your headlights are not sending photons at the moon, etc. (Pointing to high...), and your front to rear handling balance is preserved.

Some people prefer that the X sits level, and raise the front to eliminate that rake (Screw the moon, etc...)

Also, springs sag with time, and a spacer will restore sagged ride height as well.

That's the leveling effect.

In actuality...its excuse for a lift...but hey, some people need that sort of thing.

:D

A Body Lift (BL) also uses spacers, they just go in between the body mounts between the body and the frame, also lifting by whatever their thickness is...typically 2-3", I think so far, the new X's get only a 3" BL version. (Lifts the body up, leaves the frame where it started).

A 2" spacer lift (SL) rides the same as stock, the center of gravity is ~2" higher of course, which makes a small difference in handling, like you need to go about 2- mph slower around that high speed hairpin turn/lose < 0.02-3 G's of lateral acceleration, etc.

Off road, the 2" of ground clearance is a true advantage, especially avoiding high centering and break over angle problems....your diffs are of course at the same height (Tire size dependant only...).

I have yet to see an improvement in articulation on an X though...as with a IFS, down travel and pre-droop and SL are synonymous...and, the down travel has NOTHING to do with a coil spring...as the spring doesn't hold UP the arms, it can ONLY PUSH THEM DOWN.

So - A longer coil might keep the weight on that tire further down in the droop, but it could not make it droop further than it would with no spring at all.

Its possible I'm wrong, I keep reading how it gives more articulation...I just have no idea how it would do it.

If the shocks were too short, I could see longer shocks allowing more droop for example....just not a longer spring, or a spaced spring, etc.


Reader's DIgest Version:

So - It is a real SL, and it does help off road in clearance issues for the frame...it has minimal effect on handling or ride, and would be combined with (Ideally) longer shackles to lift the rear to match.

great thanks for clearing that up tj

If you do it, get rear shackles instead of the AAL to lft the rear...the AAL's HURT articulation, the shackles help it...the AAL's stiffen the ride, the shackles leave it stock.

If you don't offroad, and don't need articulation, and don't mind a harder ass, then AAL's are fine...same with carrying heavy loads, AAL's do help there...but again at the expense of axle freedom and ride harshness.

With the new X's AAL's are almost needed. Once I put my shackles on my factory leafs were flat, laying on the overload spring. I ended up with the Calmini AAL and AC shackle. It sits about right now.

Jason -

I'm not sure I understand how the shackle length changed the weight on the end of the leaf?


The way I understand it, a leaf spring doesn't know how long your shackles are...only how much weight is in its eye trying to flatten it.

As the weight of the truck didn't change when you swapped shackles, the weight on the eye should have been constant...or, if the butt is higher, it may even REDUCE the weight on the end of the leaf...shifting weight forward.

In the 60's, we'd make fun of guys who pumped up their air shocks, jacking the rear ends up in the air, and claiming that it was pushing the tires down harder. :D

One guy made us take his ride to a truck scale to PROVE that he was pushing the tires down harder....did a before and after on the pumped up/level heights and scale weights.

Well, the total weight was the same, but jacking up the rear just shifted some of the weight to the front, putting LESS weight on the rear. (And, therefore, less on the rear suspension holding it up)

:D

There's a pretty well established principle that essentally says that for every 2" longer a shackle is, it lifts the truck by 1", as you are only lifting it by one end....a 6" longer shackle will give you 3" of lift, etc.

No part of that says anything about the shackle making the truck heavier, pushing down harder.

:D

So - there's a REALLY good chance that you merely started looking harder at your springs in the process of crawling around under there, and noticed that that were kind of flat...or, by coincidence, that's when you got spring sag...but really no chance that a longer shackle would push down harder on the end of the leaf.

:fussball-big:

I might think so, but so far every new X that has shackles that I have seen has the same exact problem. You put the shackles on and the leafs almost immediately flatten. Mine were straight across with no arch what so ever before the AAL were put in. I can't explain it, only that it's happening.

I think I remember this same thing happening on my brother's jeep. When he put the longer shackles on, it flattened out his springs.

My X didn't.

:D

My Jeep's didn't.

After time, sure, but not anything to do with the shackles.

Hmmm, this guy Charlie is getting some for his '06 OR, he wanted to do it at my place...I can do a before/after look see...maybe there's some sort of time space continuim warp of the gravitational cartisian grid morphology that is impacted by shackles on new X's?

Hmmmm, that ALSO means we can do a new kind of LIFT - WE ADD REALLY SHORT SHACKLES, AND ARCH THE CRAP OUT OF THE SPRINGS giving instant LIFT!!!!

:D

Hmmmm, that ALSO means we can do a new kind of LIFT - WE ADD REALLY SHORT SHACKLES, AND ARCH THE CRAP OUT OF THE SPRINGS giving instant LIFT!!!!

:D

Very clever

Speaking of jeeps...

There IS way to flatten the springs...

If the shackles are TOO long, so that when under compression the spring is reverse arched (Past flat, and bowed up in the middle), it can essentially re-arch the springs, and flatten them over time.

Again...it isn't instant though, it takes bending them in the wrong direction too many times.

:D

I know the leaves on the new X are essentially the same springs as used on the old X, but with the center pin shifted slightly...

I also know on the old X, even with the 3" longer lift shackles, I could not get my springs to get past flat under full compression.

I have yet to do measurements on a new X with lift shackles under compression to see if the suspension is able to get past flat under full compression or not.

Even so...it would not happen upon installation as described, but over time, AND, Requiring Repeated Full Compression....not mere driving along at ride height, etc.

Hope that helps.

If not, we can invent short shackle lifts.

:D

Hey, I'm not doubting you here. I have just personally witnessed it on at least 3 new X's. It's not instant, but it isn't over more than a months worth of time that they become flat.

So, that somewhat corresponds to the leaves that go flat w/o longer shackles as well.

The best way to tell if the shackles are too long, and are allowing the leaves to reverse arch on full comprssion is to take one and flex it out and look.

If its reverse arching the leaf...over time, that IS what can happen.

It IS possible for an over time scenario to occur, just not instantaneous as originally described.

OK, who's got a new X with longer shackles and a camera?

:D

Either way, a month or less is pretty instantaneous. They did flatten out more than stock as soon as I changed the shackles but it took a bit of time before they were resting on the overloads.

Since shackles are not static (they pivot at both ends), longer shackles would / could cause the leafs to flatten because they are allowed to lengthen more than with shorter shackes. If you created lift by dropping the rear spring pirch and keep the same length shackles (as stock) then the chance of flattening would be reduced.

Interesting theory...but most suspension people feel that the shackle swing helps to prevent spring stress, as the shackle takes the movement the leaf would otherwise have to flex.

The X's leaves are set up so that the front mount is fixed, and can only rotate about its bushing, with no fore/aft flex provided.

The rear mounts are on shackles, which allow the leaf to move up and down on that end...the leaves themselves cannot get longer or shorter of course, but, they can get flatter or arched in either direction...extending the straight line distance betwen the ends, etc....(Which you obviously meant, etc.) which in turn either moves the suspended frame, or is transmitted to shackle movement.

If a static down-load imposed by any length shackle would obviously not change the leaf shape or stress...the only remaining stress on the leaves would be from flexed situ/external forces.

If we lower/lengthen the shock mount, lets say all the way, eliminating the need for a shackle for example...to emphasize the relationship...

We'd have a leaf that under compression cycle, would be flattened by bowing up in the middle, as it could not move its end attachment points.

Think of the strain on the metal leaf imposed by the rising axle if the ends were fixed...ALL the deformation energy would be placed upon the leaf itself, without relief.

Adding a shackle allows it to essentially increase the radius of the arch, relieving some of that stress.

The shorter the shackle, the less of that relief it can provide.

The point of diminishing return in longer shackle length, seems to be the point at which the leaf can increase its arch radius such that the remaining arch overlaps the support range of the leaf...with NO tension...typically about where the leaf would naturally stabilize if just laying on the drive way, off the truck. (Neutral Support Zone)

:D

Now that we've established/clarified that the shackle itself does not impose longer arch radius (Flatten the spring), upon installation, and that spring fatigue, over time, is potentialy at play...we can look at true potential concerns.

The first and most obvious concern would be that the new X's are more sensitive to shackle length, and that the above mentioned point of diminishing return appears sooner (Shorter).

If this is the case, allowing the leaf end to swing to the rear even a short distance further, allows the arch radius to reach the neutral support zone of the leaf.

Once in this zone, the weight of the truck can rapidly overwhelm the foot pounds per inch provided by the spring rate...and allow a reverse arch to occur (The axle pushes the middle of the leaf pack up higher than the leave's eyes)

Reverse arching prematurely sags leaves, much like bending metal back and forth causes it to weaken at that point.

As I imagine that people who have done a lift intend to off road, the opportunity to reverse arch exists, if the shackles are too long...or, if the steel in the leaves is poor (A Nissan issue)... it can also happen such that one fault exacerbates another (Shit steel being over flexed..).

:D

I have seen where trucks were not offroaded too much UNTIL they were lifted, which can provide a confluence of the above involved factors.


The bottom line is that we need volunteers to do a full rear compression, and take some pics of the leaf positions, etc. - For BOTH a stock, AND a lifted new X.

If the leaf is reverse arched for either, we have an answer.

:D

Not a real good pic, but here is a new X that had been wheeled for about a year before the rear shackles were put on.

http://www.westpaxterraclub.com/gallery/d/2413-2/G8QP9141.jpg

You can see that the pack is flat across during compression. My guess that the only thing stopping it from bending any more is the overload leaf.

Here is my X with AC rear shackles and Calmini AAL.

http://www.westpaxterraclub.com/gallery/d/2425-2/G8QP9153.jpg

It’s hard to see, but it almost looks like the leaves are bent backwards. I took off the overload leaf.

I am trying to find a picture of when I first installed the shackles. I know I have a driveway shot from when the install was done. I am also pretty sure I have a shot just before the install of the shackles, but I’ll have to see if I can find them.

Very good info!

OK - I can't see from here, the pics are too dark...but what you are saying is (I think) that when people install the shackles they remove the overload leaf.

That alone can lead to that type of stress/reverse arch vulnerability.

Perhaps the dreaded overload leaf/road grader combo is needed on the new X's?

On the old ones, it was removed when some AAL's were added, and the AAL's shored up the leaf enough to not miss the OL leaf.

Maybe our bogey is the OL?

For the 3 new X people mentioned who had the leaf sag...did all of them also remove the OL?

Not that I know of, I am trying to confirm and get more info and photos. I know I had not removed my overload leaf until I installed the AAL.

After the shackle install my packs were sitting flat with the overload leaf. This was before my rear bumper install and my 33" spare was under the truck like stock. I never carried much weight in the back (usually a milk crate with some random stuff in it, a small tool kit, laptop and camera bag. Total weight typically wouldn't have been over 50-75lbs.

Well, if the new X's leaves just sag, it wouldn't shock me...a lot of the new '00's and so forth had some premature sag as well...stock.

Nissan's spring steel is not exactly top shelf.

Well, if the new X's leaves just sag, it wouldn't shock me...a lot of the new '00's and so forth had some premature sag as well...stock.

Nissan's spring steel is not exactly top shelf.
so, would the fact that longer shackles change the angle of the leaf not have anything to do with it?
by 2 weekends from now, ill be re-installing my lift shackles, with AAL already installed, ill take pics and post them

Oh Yea, If The Spacers Are For The Ball Joint Then You Get More Travel

A ball joint spacer doesn't give more travel, as all it does is pre-droop you ~1/2", and that comes from taking a 1/2" of uptravel, as the IFS is still just moving from upper to lower stop....so you have the same total wheel travel, just starting and stopping at slightly different points.

:D

Also - the shackles don't change the angle of the leaf, as the leaf has no idea how long the shackles are.

What the shackle DOES do is allow the rear leaf eye to move further in relation to the axle, as it can swing back and forth...so the leaf itself has no idea its moving, as its still stuck in the same old eye...and doesn't flex more or less most of the time...just goes along for the ride just like the axle.

This is why a longer shackle is easier on the spring pack, the shackle swing takes motion that used to have to be done entirely by the leaves.

This is also why a longer shackle allows more total wheel travel, the extra reach of the shackle's swing lets the wheels reach further.

The only time the shackle length changes the leaf directly is in the event of over compression...where the leaf is flattening as it would with any shackle as the axle rises (Under compression)...with the rear eye of the leaf rising as the shackle swings on the way up....and, when the longer shackle holds the rear eye 1.5" lower than the previous limit...so, the same axle rise can bend the leaf pack ~ another 1.5" at the rear eye.

1.5" is not much in the scheme of things, given the length of the springs and so forth, but is IS happening IF you over compress.

Greeting all,
I have an 05 and added the 2 inch spacers up front which, I believe lead to a droopy Butt.
That coupled with an order for a rear bumper weighing in at 100+ pounds
prompted me to order the AAL that I installed this past week-end.
I'm really pleased with the " Look " and haven't received my bumper yet.
My anticipation is the added weight at the very rear should " soften" the ride a little.
It was a great way to get the lift with the wife too!
JimB

Interesting approach...do a front suspension lift, leaving the rear at stock height...

Comment to wife that the rear end has "drooped", and needs AAL's, which raise it back up, but, stiffen the ride, so a rear bumper with some beef is in order to soften the stiffened ride...

You may be a genius.

:D

That system is probably easier than mine:

1. Run into a tree
2. Need new front bumper, better get a shrock
3. Better get the BL version of the shrock, so no gap later.
4. Need to get the BL before the bumper...
5. Current tires gonna be too small with the BL... etc..

I feel fight at home here...literally. My girlfriend doesn't always approve of these mods. Here is what I had to do.
1) Repeatedly insist that I would be ordering a bumper from Shrock.
2) Repeatedly hear the same reply: You aren't getting any bumper until I get a ring.
3) Insist that if I bought her a ring that she still wouldn't allow a bumper because she would then want me to save for a wedding.
4) Secretly order a bumper AND SLIDERS from Shrock.
5) Just before the bumper arrives, take a spur of the moment trip to the beach and pop the question.
6) Install all of the above and start planning a wedding.

Problem is, I don't know what I will have to do to get the next things.

LOL

That's where a good build-up plan is vital.

The secret is euphanisms.

Or, what I call Stealth Mods.

For example...I was doing a drive way mod day with a few freinds...I needed to install a 2" BL.

I set up the situation a few months before...Damn, the dealer wants $500 to do the 15K bushing change...that's crazy!

Maybe I can do it myself...I'll call some freinds and see if they feel like helping out, maybe I can help them with some of their maintenance stuff too, like a party!

:D

Well, we changed out those bushings (Body Mounts), and it went fine...

The other mods went about the same.

On the other hand, I married my trophy bride also because she's cool.

For X-mas a few yrs ago, she knew I wanted a bumper...so she asked me which one, so I told her.

I then called Shrock, told him she'd be calling, and to tell her for whatever the bumper costs...they of course come with a matching winch and sliders. ...which I'd settle with him on the side.

:D

So - the wifey was VERY proud of the great X-mas present she gave me, it was so much stuff.

:love-eyes2-big:

Lift? - Damn, the springs have sagged like 3", I'd better fix that...

Big tires? - What, No, they were always that big, but these have the whitewalls in, so they look bigger...

Can't climb into the truck w/o a step stool - Damn babe, you used to be so spry...you're not getting too old are you?

Etc.

:D