A lot of the forums/groups have contracts that members have to sign before they can go on group wheeling events. Maybe we can make up contracts (I know this is gay) to protect ourselves in case of damaging somebody's truck. A few months ago I damaged someone's bumper recovering another truck and was called on to pay for the repairs. Since there are so many people requesting other member's help, I think it only fair to protect ourselves when we offer our time and money (gas & tolls) to help these folks out. I just want to look out for my fellow CX brothers and stop potential lawsuits if God forbid anything goes wrong. Maybe one of you can paste a boiler plate protection/liability contract.

sounds ridiculous, but unfortunately it is needed some times

Yeah as much as it sucks people always have to blame someone else. In Tims case someone needed help and still blamed him for damages. Its probably a good idea and would protect not only the members involved but also the site Admin.

Will

what happened to tim was total bs....there were other parties present that did not think to check the rigging of the recovery setup, including the owner of the vehicle that the rigging was hooked to....imho nobody should have had to pay, that kinda thing comes with the territory...since there was no malice or ill-intent behind it, its a 'shit-happens' scenario

people dont understand that if you get in an accident on the trail, it is not the same as getting in an accident on the roads...nobody is calling insurance, nobody is suing (or shouldn't be)....

i let the owner of the vehicle in tim's case know that he was a pile of shit while in a drunken state, so i think i won that war for tim :)

also in this contract should be a clause forcing the owners of vehicles being worked on to wrench a certain percentage of the job...thats why i wont do someone else's body lift again :)

A A few months ago I damaged someone's bumper recovering another truck and was called on to pay for the repairs.

Sounds more like it was a third truck not doing the towing or being towed that got damaged?

If so, it sucks and makes a bad situation worse-- yet not unreasonable expectation that the damage be covered in that case.

If it was the guy you helped tow out--wonder if it becomes a case of "good samaritin" rules? He asked for your help, you are not a professional tow truck and you did best you could (same kinda deal as when a non emt guy does CPR to help someone--Good samaritin law protects people in a case like that.)

Sounds more like it was a third truck not doing the towing or being towed that got damaged?

If so, it sucks and makes a bad situation worse-- yet not unreasonable expectation that the damage be covered in that case.

If it was the guy you helped tow out--wonder if it becomes a case of "good samaritin" rules? He asked for your help, you are not a professional tow truck and you did best you could (same kinda deal as when a non emt guy does CPR to help someone--Good damaritin law protects people in a case like that.)

it was out on the trails out rausch creek, not on public roads, making the situation even more ridiculous because when you are out on the trails there is a different mindset as to helping people out

and the guy obviously didnt care about the bumper because after the situation was 'made right' he still didnt get it fixed, he just made a profit

horseshit

I think the contract thing is a good way to protect yourself however...if someone is stuck and you stop to lend them a hand are you saying to also carry a contract in your vehicle to have them sign before towing them?

I have never thought about this before, there is a spot on my way home from work that guys go to on a somewhat regular basis and the ones that don't know the place real good get stuck and if I see them I will stop and help them out. They are mostly very young and not experienced in mudding.

I think I will just start telling them verbally that I will help as long as you don't hold me responsible if something happings to your vehicle.

Now what if something happens to your own vehicle while helping someone?

it was out on the trails out rausch creek, not on public roads, making the situation even more ridiculous because when you are out on the trails there is a different mindset as to helping people out

and the guy obviously didnt care about the bumper because after the situation was 'made right' he still didnt get it fixed, he just made a profit

horseshit


OK so his post was unclear on that, it was the guy he towed that bitched and had some damage? Well like I said , legally you may want to check out if covered by a "good samaritin" law. Morally/ethically -ie social mores and ways of wheelers, guy is being a tool, but it could be something litigated if not covered by a good samaritin rule and then it would come down to the other guy giving his permission etc etc and Tim not being a professional tow truck operator and acting within his "best efforts." I agree it's BS and a douche move and there are other ways the guy would be sorted out--like being excluded and shunned from the 4x4 community and maybe RC?

(I am not, nor do I claim to be, a lawyer and this is by no means to be considered definitive legal advice)

i can see a contract being handy for mod days and for wheeling trips.

what happened to tim was total bs....there were other parties present that did not think to check the rigging of the recovery setup, including the owner of the vehicle that the rigging was hooked to....imho nobody should have had to pay, that kinda thing comes with the territory...since there was no malice or ill-intent behind it, its a 'shit-happens' scenario

people dont understand that if you get in an accident on the trail, it is not the same as getting in an accident on the roads...nobody is calling insurance, nobody is suing (or shouldn't be)....

i let the owner of the vehicle in tim's case know that he was a pile of shit while in a drunken state, so i think i won that war for tim :)

also in this contract should be a clause forcing the owners of vehicles being worked on to wrench a certain percentage of the job...thats why i wont do someone else's body lift again :)

I wrenched the whole time on my BL....i hope you aren't referring to me..lol :)

What exactly happened? did this guy have a stock bumper? Did he have proper rear recovery? was it a gen1 or gen2 and when did this BS event occur.

That is absolute CRAP that he charged timb for the repairs....It's offroaders codes that when requesting help on the trail...damage that occurs to your rig is your own problem....esp if you are present and don't catch an unsafe situation...who ever this dude is...i will refuse to wheel with in the future....i don't get onto trails with people like that.

ahahah no b not you, a few others though

the problem was that the guy saw it as an opportunity to score some cash because he didn't have the bumper repaired...basically made a stink because the bumper got messed up, whined like a little girl, and pocketed the money and some booze...you are right, it goes against the wheeling code....tim wasn't being recovered, neither was the truck that was damaged, it was a 3rd party....problem was, there were 2\3 other people there watching the recovery and none of them, nor the recoveree or the owner of the damaged truck said a thing until afterwards...

what makes matters worse, he called tim out on a public forum and made tim look like a jerk....tim is one of the nicest dudes i know, and offered to pay for the repairs in full, declining anyone else's contributions to the repair costs....then, the guy takes cash and booze from tim, and later on, brings it back up in front of a BUNCH of other people and skews the story in his favor to make tim look like a shmuck....thats when i jumped in in a drunken stupor :)

to add insult to injury, the guy gloated about making tim pay and passed around the bottle that tim bought for him as if it were below him...i took a drink, and when i heard him talk about where it cam from, thats when i chimed in...and i can guarantee that the next time we see his truck, the same bend will be in his ARB bumper

bottom line, the guy didn't follow the wheeling code of 'YOU are responsible for what happens to YOUR rig'...everyone wheeling should know the dangers that they put their trucks through and should be prepared to pay for damages....if a spotter guides you down a bad spot and you blow a part, do you expect the spotter to pay for it?


btw, this all took place before/at ecxc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouWJa6FC7-E

did the driver make the spotter pay for a new wrangler after this? i think not...
if you feel like you were honestly wrong in a situation and want to make it right, well, thats up to you...nobody should be EXPECTED to kick in for a repair, unless the person to blame was really being an f'tard or not taking matters seriously or purposely destroying something....

p.s. tim, why is this coming up again now?

well let me know who is F***r is privatley. I refuse to wheel or lead a group with such a person in it. I go over all the rules before I lead a group into RC that this is something that I go over before we go in. Anyone who is not ok with potentially seeing damage or worse....is not permitted to go with me.

I thought this thing was squashed?

ahahah no b not you, a few others though

the problem was that the guy saw it as an opportunity to score some cash because he didn't have the bumper repaired...basically made a stink because the bumper got messed up, whined like a little girl, and pocketed the money and some booze...you are right, it goes against the wheeling code....tim wasn't being recovered, neither was the truck that was damaged, it was a 3rd party....problem was, there were 2\3 other people there watching the recovery and none of them, nor the recoveree or the owner of the damaged truck said a thing until afterwards...

what makes matters worse, he called tim out on a public forum and made tim look like a jerk....tim is one of the nicest dudes i know, and offered to pay for the repairs in full, declining anyone else's contributions to the repair costs....then, the guy takes cash and booze from tim, and later on, brings it back up in front of a BUNCH of other people and skews the story in his favor to make tim look like a shmuck....thats when i jumped in in a drunken stupor :)

to add insult to injury, the guy gloated about making tim pay and passed around the bottle that tim bought for him as if it were below him...i took a drink, and when i heard him talk about where it cam from, thats when i chimed in...and i can guarantee that the next time we see his truck, the same bend will be in his ARB bumper

bottom line, the guy didn't follow the wheeling code of 'YOU are responsible for what happens to YOUR rig'...everyone wheeling should know the dangers that they put their trucks through and should be prepared to pay for damages....if a spotter guides you down a bad spot and you blow a part, do you expect the spotter to pay for it?


This is the most retarded scenario I've ever seen. DRB, Xterror04, GreentnX, and myself were talking about something like this while wheeling two weekends ago. There is risk in wheeling to your truck and to you. If you are unwilling to accept the fact that you or your truck may be damaged or destroyed while participating you should stay home!

Every time I go wheeling I am prepared to accept the fact that my truck may not be coming home. No one will be held responsible but myself, period. I chose to put it into that situation and I will accept the consequences of my choices and actions.

Unfortunately this is a good idea

I hate to say this but I've given this alot of thought in the past, and the only protection you have is to NOT help... You can write up any contract you want and it won't stand up in court unless you are a professional business an professionally trained in what you are doing...

As I've tried to help people, a ton of What-if's have gone through my mind so I stopped doing it... Basically, if I'm recovering someone, I toss the tow rope to them and let them connect to their vehicle... If they ask me where to connect it, I use the words "I think I might try connecting it there if I were you"... Then I ask, "Are you sure you want me to pull this??" and I tell them "You be sure to yell 'STOP' really loud when you want me to stop" and I leave the window down with the radio off.

Basically, by doing so, I've passed all the decisions off onto them so I'm doing nothing more than doing what they've asked me to do... I also go very easy on the gas pedal keeping in mind that I don't HAVE to recover them when they can call out a Professional if they want to....

When NOISH was over, I almost made a mistake on his Xterra that I considered to be terrible (but he didn't mind) and I would've bought a replacement part for him if wanted... The fact is, I wasn't (and am not) used to working on rusty parts... Either way, it was a reality check, so from then on anytime anyone has came over, I hand them the tools and tell them what needs to be done then I only get in and help when necessary...

IMHO, this is part of recognizing that we are Hobbyists and Enthusiasts, NOT Professionals, and there's a huge difference... I grew up in shops working on cars but that was a very long time ago and alot of small details that I've forgotten about since then and that's not to mention how much the Metal used has changed over the years... Parts that used to be solid can easily bend or break now and Professionals who do what they do daily are much more practiced in how to get the job done.

Know what I mean?? ;)

Agreed, l am not signing any contract and no good deed goes un punished.

to add insult to injury, the guy gloated about making tim pay and passed around the bottle that tim bought for him as if it were below him...i took a drink, and when i heard him talk about where it cam from, thats when i chimed in..



So thats where the rum came from.. Ohh.. :(

We shouldn't be doing this guys. Its obvious Tim thought he did something he shouldn't have or why would he have paid him? If TIM still has a problem with this guy he should say so and if he doesn't we shouldn't fan the flame.

A lot of the forums/groups have contracts that members have to sign before they can go on group wheeling events. Maybe we can make up contracts (I know this is gay) to protect ourselves in case of damaging somebody's truck. A few months ago I damaged someone's bumper recovering another truck and was called on to pay for the repairs. Since there are so many people requesting other member's help, I think it only fair to protect ourselves when we offer our time and money (gas & tolls) to help these folks out. I just want to look out for my fellow CX brothers and stop potential lawsuits if God forbid anything goes wrong. Maybe one of you can paste a boiler plate protection/liability contract.

That sucks man.


Who's the d bag who wanted you to pay?

Give us his NAME.

:feuerkopf-big:


I think a "Contract" would be almost impossible to enforce...unless the parties ISSUING IT bound each and every potentially involved individual to the other individuals, or, we all joined some sort of club/legal entity, that carried this as a membership requirement to wheel together, etc.


My OWN procedure is to simply say to the party being rescued, if appropriate, that their predicament may result in damage, and are they ok with that....if they say no, I walk away.

If they say they're ok, I proceed....obviously in good faith TRYING to prevent damage, etc.

A good example was at RC when it was very slippery and off camber on one of the new section trails...and one truck crabbed over onto a tree at the edge of the cliff.

So, the truck was on a curve, against a tree, and had about no traction.

He needed recovery, but, there were almost no places to pull him from with a winch or a tow strap, and he didn't have recovery hooks where they would have been handy, etc.

Because of the curve, he could not go straight up/down, as that's off the edge of the cliff.

Because of the angles, he HAD to move a bit forward or backwards just to get off the tree, as pulling sideways was not possible due to the narrowness of the trail.

I looked at it, and said "You're going to have a dent HERE, and some scrapes HERE...I recommend a blanket or something HERE, to allow it to slide passed with less damage...do you want to give it a try?"

They said yes, and we rigged a double pulley recovery, and got them free with minimal, but noticeable, damage, about where it was expected.

It was a new and shiny truck, and this was its FIRST SCRATCH.

The driver and his wife were cool about it, and decided to dig body damage and move on.

:D


If there are OTHER rigs in potentially bad locations...either if a line snaps, or a rig slips or rolls, etc....I tell them to get out of the way.

And so forth.


Its rare there's damage in that way in the first place, but, if everyone mans up for the various levels of responsibility...if damage occurs, its at least with everyone going into it knowing potential outcomes...and accepting responsibility for their actions.


I have NEVER been at an off road situation where it was treated like a random car accident, with parties suing each other, etc.


Hell, Mike at RC let a guy borrow his Sami to play on the comp section, and the guy ROLLED IT, causing a sheet load of damage...and HE didn't ask the guy for money, BECAUSE he LET HIM borrow it.


And so forth.

:wink-big:

This is getting out of hand. From what Tim had told me at the time Tim paid the guy because he had not asked permission to tie off onto the guys truck. Once it was found to be damaged Tim did the right thing on his own, no encouragement. It was squashed. Weather the guy fixed his truck with the money doesn't matter, you don't touch someone's truck without an ok. I don't think any kind of contract would make any difference in this instance.

Bklyn- most of us aren't referring to Tims situation (at least I am not) or any other situation. With the way people are so quick to sue (wifes a lawyer) it is always a good idea to have some form of conntract. And in most cases where there is no obvious neglect on the accused parties side a judge will probably let it go with even the shittiest of signed contracts.

This is getting out of hand. From what Tim had told me at the time Tim paid the guy because he had not asked permission to tie off onto the guys truck. Once it was found to be damaged Tim did the right thing on his own, no encouragement. It was squashed. Weather the guy fixed his truck with the money doesn't matter, you don't touch someone's truck without an ok. I don't think any kind of contract would make any difference in this instance.

Hmmm...that's an important detail.

Tim's an upstanding guy...and if he tied off w/o asking if its ok, from someone who wasn't stuck, etc...just being used as an anchor point, yeah, I get it....he took care of him.

Fair enough.

The guy's still a dick for taking the money, and Tim made a mistake by using a guy for an anchor w/o an ok...and it sounds like its been settled.


I do get defensive for Tim though, the poor guy can't seem to catch a break.

:engel-big:



Some clubs DO have contracts, for reasons like this...and, some even carry their own insurance.

MOST of the coverage/contract language, is to protect the CLUB.

IE: A guy rolls and dies on a club outing, and the bereaved heirs sue them for letting poor Johnny roll off that cliff.


I know its sort of an unwritten creed among the people I wheel with that we are all taking our chances, and willing to pay for what we break/what breaks.

There are COURTESIES, like, if someone is doing a field repair on your rig, and a tool breaks, etc...you might offer them another one or buy them one/pay for it...but, no one I know would ACCEPT the offer...they'd tell you not to worry about it. Heck, if their WINCH broke recovering you, do they think you're buying them a winch? :D

If I loan you an alternator or a spare tire to get you home, sure, I'd like it back later.

If its a spare part that is being kept, sure, pay for it, at least OFFER TO, that's fair.

And so forth.

I can see where some kind of legal protection would be helpful for a mod day, but if you seriously think about suing over something going wrong, you're an a-hole in the first place. If you want it done perfect with no risk, pay for it.
Hell, when Soccerbrace and I did my BL we broke a frame mount and forgot to unclip the heater core hoses, but I'm not gonna complain about it. Unfortunately some people don't feel the same way.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052009/1242750315_monster_truck_backflip.gif

just stating my POV on tim's situation

not even sure why it got brought back up....tim, were you drunk when you started this thread?

Your situation sucks(been there also) but if someone came up to me at the trailhead or a mod day with a contract I would A)tell them to F*** off and B) not hang out with them. You gotta trust the people you are with and know them. That is a prime example why I hate group runs. You shouldn't have to look over your shoulder everytime you go wheeling

Your situation sucks(been there also) but if someone came up to me at the trailhead or a mod day with a contract I would A)tell them to F*** off and B) not hang out with them. You gotta trust the people you are with and know them. That is a prime example why I hate group runs. You shouldn't have to look over your shoulder everytime you go wheeling

AMEN:engel-big:

Your situation sucks(been there also) but if someone came up to me at the trailhead or a mod day with a contract I would A)tell them to F*** off and B) not hang out with them. You gotta trust the people you are with and know them. That is a prime example why I hate group runs. You shouldn't have to look over your shoulder everytime you go wheeling

Word Brother!!! I am not signing any contract and will tell you to go F off. This is why I only want to wheel w/ certain people that I trust.

Word Brother!!! I am not signing any contract and will tell you to go F off. This is why I only want to wheel w/ certain people that I trust.

x2 on this! i wheel with the people I like hanging out with and trust.

I don't think you guys mean that. I've been out with some of you and have found you all to be welcoming and tolerant of noobs. If we all decide to wheel with only people we know then we can’t get new folk involved with what we do.
Don’t we want to be inclusive and maybe teach folks how be act not only on the trails but just to be decent folk?

I know that I don’t know shit; I’m still learning what’s right and what’s wrong.

Won’t you let me wheel with you?

Oh I'm dead serious! If you put a contract in my face to go wheeling I'll tell you to f*ck off. Ask me to pay for something broken on your truck, I'll tell you to f*ck off. People get one chance to prove they are fine to wheel with me so just don't f*ck up because I don't mind never seeing you again

I can see where some kind of legal protection would be helpful for a mod day, but if you seriously think about suing over something going wrong, you're an a-hole in the first place. If you want it done perfect with no risk, pay for it.
Hell, when Soccerbrace and I did my BL we broke a frame mount and forgot to unclip the heater core hoses, but I'm not gonna complain about it. Unfortunately some people don't feel the same way.

FYI Dylan, I know you weren't ocmplaining about me just as a disclaimer :) I have never done a BL and messed with the heater core hoses. I am sorry that it happened though. The bolt in the body was just an age thing.

I think that there has to be a sense of decency felt amongst friends before deciding to wrench on each other's trucks.

Here is a perfect example: Some dude started a heater core on his 91 Chevy s10 the other day. He couldn't finish it. I came and take a look at it, and I told him I could finish it for $100. He said hell yeah! I replace the heater core. What happened though was there was a unique heater hose that runs from the intake to one side of the heater core. the hose was flexible,with a crimped hard line. This hardline had a tab that bolted to the back of the block, and a male fitting that threaded into the manifold. In order to try to salvage the existing hose I decided, that I should disconnect it from the manifold and allow me to try to twist the hose off. As soon as I took a wrench to the fitting, it just crumbles. Half of the fitting is stuck in the intake manifold. I told him about this and that it was just something that is unforseen, and a gamble due to vehicle age. I went to the store and there is actually a TOOL SPECIFICALLY MADE for these EXACT fittings because these fittings are obviously such a piece of crap. I told him that I could fix the entire thing but it would cost about $15 more, and I would swallow the cost of the tool. He didn't want me to touch the vehicle, and I was out the $100, even though another shop would've charged hime over $300. F-him. That pissed me off.

I have spotted friends into a big ass boulder before, friends have spotted me where I was laying on my side. It's part of the sport, and people need to know this. Mod days, well, there is a certain amont of judgement that you need to pass on your fellow man.

Alex and I honestly did 95% of work this one weekend. There were 3 X's. Him and I did 3 body lifts, 1 PML, and 1 AC 3" lift on these 3. We did SOOOOO much work, and it was him and I wrenching the entire time. That 5% that him and I were not working, we were fetching parts for others and paying for them. We ate the food, and drank the drinks that were given to us, but at the end of the day, he drove about 3 hours, crashed at my place, and him and I just busted our asses for others.

I am still friend with 2 of the 3 people, but I think twice about working on a lot of people's vehicles. When I am getting paid like that S10 guy, I kinda have to own it, but if I am just helping you because I have some knowledge, and you are going to try to get money out of me when I had the best of intentions, then kiss my ass.

Oh I'm dead serious! If you put a contract in my face to go wheeling I'll tell you to f*ck off. Ask me to pay for something broken on your truck, I'll tell you to f*ck off. People get one chance to prove they are fine to wheel with me so just don't f*ck up because I don't mind never seeing you againHey I’m not signing any contract ether but to say you guys will only wheel with folks you know just doesn’t seem right. Especially you guys that know what’s right. You’ve got to pass that on. No?

And I doubt you would tie off or even touch someone else’s truck without asking, right?

Believe me bro when I say I know where you are coming from. I also prefer to wheel with three to five trucks; a “core” group of guys that I trust. I will run tougher trails with these guys because I trust them.
However I also feel as though I have an obligation to turn new folk on to wheeling or help folk “step up” to trails that they haven’t tried before.
I admit that this isn’t as fun as running “Blacks” with my homies but I believe we need to get as many people involved in our “hobby” as possible. IMHO it helps keep trails open and helps get manufacturers willing to address our needs in vehicles and aftermarket products.
What do you think?

FYI Dylan, I know you weren't ocmplaining about me just as a disclaimer :) I have never done a BL and messed with the heater core hoses. I am sorry that it happened though. The bolt in the body was just an age thing.

I know both of those things. It's my truck, I can take care of it myself anyway.
Thanks again for the help, I wouldn't have gotten it done at all if you hadn't helped.

Hey I’m not signing any contract ether but to say you guys will only wheel with folks you know just doesn’t seem right. Especially you guys that know what’s right. You’ve got to pass that on. No?

And I doubt you would tie off or even touch someone else’s truck without asking, right?

Believe me bro when I say I know where you are coming from. I also prefer to wheel with three to five trucks; a “core” group of guys that I trust. I will run tougher trails with these guys because I trust them.
However I also feel as though I have an obligation to turn new folk on to wheeling or help folk “step up” to trails that they haven’t tried before.
I admit that this isn’t as fun as running “Blacks” with my homies but I believe we need to get as many people involved in our “hobby” as possible. IMHO it helps keep trails open and helps get manufacturers willing to address our needs in vehicles and aftermarket products.
What do you think?

I hear ya and I do go with less knowledgeable people sometimes and usually its fine. I try to do one big group ride a year and thats about all I can handle. I usually go with people that are more experienced so if you think about it I am the one learning. I got myself into that group of people because I wanted to learn and they accepted me not because they are doing me a favor by me hanging out with them. If someone puts in the effort and they aren't a dickhead I'll put in the effort but otherwise screw them.

Hope that answers your question and I'm not trying to sound cocky but its hard for me to hang out with people that have no respect for others or the unsaid rules of wheeling.

Hey I’m not signing any contract ether but to say you guys will only wheel with folks you know just doesn’t seem right. Especially you guys that know what’s right. You’ve got to pass that on. No?

And I doubt you would tie off or even touch someone else’s truck without asking, right?

Believe me bro when I say I know where you are coming from. I also prefer to wheel with three to five trucks; a “core” group of guys that I trust. I will run tougher trails with these guys because I trust them.
However I also feel as though I have an obligation to turn new folk on to wheeling or help folk “step up” to trails that they haven’t tried before.
I admit that this isn’t as fun as running “Blacks” with my homies but I believe we need to get as many people involved in our “hobby” as possible. IMHO it helps keep trails open and helps get manufacturers willing to address our needs in vehicles and aftermarket products.
What do you think?

I hear ya Tom...maybe I over reacted a little...Must guys who I have wheeled w/ from here or your club or mine I have trusted and knew they would help me out if I needed it.

Yes we should wheel w/ some new guys and help them out step up to new trails. But I will not ever sign a contract before wheelin....if you don't trust me enough then I don't think I want to wheel w/ those kinds of people.

For me, its context based.


When I am on trails with Tom, or someone who I've been wheeling with a long time, and we are rockin the blacks and pretty much just assuming that we have each others backs if the sheet hits the fin, etc...I will act/behave accordingly, and we have fun, because we know what to expect, and how far is too far, etc.


When I am with newbies, and I am trying to make it fun for them, show them the ropes/get them to bust their dirt cherries, etc...

....I am ALWAYS aware that they do NOT know what to expect, they do NOT have spare parts, they do NOT expect ANY damage, and they have no freekin CLUE as to what's too hard, and what's easy, etc.

So, I find my self caveating pretty much any topic to try to help them understand.


There IS an implied trust when a newbie asks an experienced wheeler, especially the trail leader, spotter, etc....and they ARE essentially hoping that the person will give good advice, etc.

It takes a bit of nerve for a newbie to attempt something that looks, to them, impossible...but the spotter says "COME ON!"

:D

If the spotter says come-on, and they do, and the truck falls off a cliff, most newbies will tend to blame the spotter.

The problem of course, is that a newbie might panic when the spotter motions them to the right...and go straight too long, etc.

AS a spotter, I therefore ASSUME they might be spastic petrified deaf and blind - and they might use the gas pedal to brace themselves if they think they are flipping back, or brake hard if coming down to fast, etc....

...BECAUSE they ARE newbies, and forget how to drive when its off road.

So, I take that into account...because I want them to go off roading a SECOND TIME too.

:D



So, sure, if I am with one of my regular dirt budz, we do not have to review hand signals or ask if they have a recovery point, etc.

If its a newb, you better believe I am finding out if they have an open element air filter/water induction intake system, or have a few recovery options, or have the battery tied down/loose crap in the back....or ever off roaded before, know to air down, and how much, yada yada yada....BEFORE hitting a trail.

A review of hand signals, some easy stuff to calibrate their OH SHIT factors/see what they're made of, etc....stress the tread lightly parts, and then slowly ramp up the pace/difficulty as the day progresses, and their capabilities become sharpened/obvious, etc.

I can then ASK if they want to try a harder line, say more off camber, etc...or are willing to risk scraping the bottom on a rock to make it, etc...or need a bathroom and a by-pass.


That way, I AVOID most (Not all of course) problems with them freezing up/getting wrecked, being pissed about damage, etc.


Sometimes, a newb is just SO freaked out by stuff, that they don't want to try ANYTHING...a dirt access road is all they can handle without a heart attack...one guys GF was calling him a pussy all day as he by-passed EVERYTHING.

On the other end of the spectrum, are newbs who want to do EVERYTHING, and shrug off rocker damage, etc...laughing how it gives the truck character, etc....

...but you never see them again, because they got such a hard time about the damage at home, or it sank in that they trashed their new truck, etc.


So, I also try to get them to compromise a bit, and get the chickens to fly a little higher, and the cowboys to rein it in a bit.

And so forth.


So, WHO I'm with, and how I act with them, and what I expect of them, and what's assumed, and what's clarified....changes with the individuals.



I actually LIKE wheeling with newbies, its like having your kid take his or her first steps...over and over again...its a good feeling.

I LIKE to see that smile on their face when they do something they thought they couldn't...that internal fist pump of victory.

:wink-big:

Sorry for the late reply guys....sort of opened the can and went on vacation lol. This thread is just referring to mod days....NOTHING ELSE. I just thought that if you threw a mod day or worked on someones truck and damaged his truck-something like busting his heater core or dropping a jackstand through his oil pan or on someone you would not be held legally responsible. nothing else.
to get the story straight
the truck two trucks in front of me got bogged down. the truck in front of me did not want to yank so he pulled out of the way and smoked a cigar. i proceeded to winch the truck in front of me but was getting pulled in. i then asked the truck behind me if i could use him as an anchor. he said yes (while eating a sandwich) and did not get out to check where i attached to his bumper. i attached to the top loop of an arb (i later found out was a no no-thanks TJ) and it bent his top loop by and inch. after getting the first truck out, saw the bend and said nothing out of disgust of only one person Andy helping out with his winch. It took 30,000 lbs. of force to get the first guy out.
that's what happened. I hold nothing against anyone, I paid my debt....it is squashed.
I just want to wheel and not deal with any of the small bullshit. I was wrong, he was wrong....we talked and i thought squashed it.

Cool Tim....You can wheel w/ me and the others I usually wheel w/ and never have to deal w/ any of that BS. :)

you guys are too extreme for me. plus who's going to bring you guys parts on the trail when you break down?

you guys are too extreme for me. plus who's going to bring you guys parts on the trail when you break down?

I'll have them with me...

you guys are too extreme for me. plus who's going to bring you guys parts on the trail when you break down?

Damn Tim, I've trekked for parts FOR you more than FROM you, but, hell, you know i love you man.



As for Mod Days...yeah, I think merely making SURE that everyone knows the rules should suffice.

I think there have been threads on this before, but the gist of it is that the helpers are granted immunity from boneheaded mistakes..but not malicious acts.

IE: A guy helping me on my engine swap twists the heater core tube, so it breaks in the firewall, causing me about 2 days of extra work...he made an honest attempt to fix it, it didn't work, so, I suck it up. (Never even told him it didn't work)


The SECRET is to establish WHO helps to do WHAT on a mod day.

Its YOUR truck...and, you need to either chose who you want doing what, or appoint a trusted pit boss to oversee on your behalf, especially if you are making parts runs, getting pizza/beer, etc...and are off site more than on....or, know nothing yourself, and have no clue who knows more, etc...)


Its no guarantee that no damage will occur, but, it does tend to reduce the risks.

Sometimes, a simple "OK" is appropriate, like you're under another's rig, and the bolt's rusted to hell, and you are weighing PB-ing and waiting, vs loss of daylight and crew, and ask the owner "Hey, this thing's rust welded pretty bad...we can let it soak, or breaker bar it, and see if it comes off now...but if its strips/breaks, we're done for....

...but if we wait a few hours, we're done any way, as its going to be dark, and no one will be here to help finish by then....

You want me to go for it, or spray it and wait for another day?"

Etc.

Witnesses are good of course, as is repeating it for emphasis, in case there might be a change of mind, etc.


I typically TELL people that helpers are immune, and that a mod day REQUIRES this...as stuff can break no matter WHO does it...and a helper is no exception.

:wink-big:

Thank you Tom and TJ.....you have been trusted friends for years and have ALWAYS helped me out of jams with your help, advice, and knowledge. You know walmart has started selling caskets online (just wanted to pay you older gentleman back) :)
And thank you to everyone that has helped me out in the past Brian, Mike, Jason and the rest of you knuckle heads.

Thank you Tom and TJ.....you have been trusted friends for years and have ALWAYS helped me out of jams with your help, advice, and knowledge. You know walmart has started selling caskets online (just wanted to pay you older gentleman back) :)
And thank you to everyone that has helped me out in the past Brian, Mike, Jason and the rest of you knuckle heads.

I wonder if I was laid to rest in a Walmart casket, if my Corpse would get lead poisoning?

Agreed that helpers/workers should be immune if not paying a professional. My neighbor and his nephew helped with my lift in the spring. When I took the truck in for an alignment the shop noticed a leaky caliper (Reputable 4x4 shop) and said that most likely the leak was caused by overtightening the brake line. I never mentioned it to the guy that did brake lines, I know it was not intended and was probably not even a stupid mistake as he has done brakes on hundreds of vehicles. A few months later he was helping me rotate my tires and noticed the new caliper. At that point I told him it was replaced when I got the alignment. He asked if he damaged the original and offered to pay for it, to which I emphatically refused....

Also, his nephew, who also helped me, spotted me into a big branch that put a big scratch on my hood, we have it on video and get a good laugh from it. You can clearly hear him say "Keep coming", from his angle it looked like I would miss the branch, then you hear the crunch and scrapes. I laugh every time I see it, it's just one of those things that happens... He also was leading when I got pinched between two trees, he was in a Samurai and I asked on the radio if he thought I would fit.. He said I think so, if it were my rig I would try it.... So, I tried it, and did some damage. Oh well, I'm not out to purposely put a 65 inch wide rig through a 60 inch gap, but when your talking an inch or less on either side, shit happens.. If I went through again I might make it without a scrape, not very likely though... Or I might really trash something, break a window, who knows.... We went a different way back as to not find out, but I sure as hell didn't send him a bill.

Agreed that helpers/workers should be immune if not paying a professional. My neighbor and his nephew helped with my lift in the spring. When I took the truck in for an alignment the shop noticed a leaky caliper (Reputable 4x4 shop) and said that most likely the leak was caused by overtightening the brake line. I never mentioned it to the guy that did brake lines, I know it was not intended and was probably not even a stupid mistake as he has done brakes on hundreds of vehicles. A few months later he was helping me rotate my tires and noticed the new caliper. At that point I told him it was replaced when I got the alignment. He asked if he damaged the original and offered to pay for it, to which I emphatically refused....

Also, his nephew, who also helped me, spotted me into a big branch that put a big scratch on my hood, we have it on video and get a good laugh from it. You can clearly hear him say "Keep coming", from his angle it looked like I would miss the branch, then you hear the crunch and scrapes. I laugh every time I see it, it's just one of those things that happens... He also was leading when I got pinched between two trees, he was in a Samurai and I asked on the radio if he thought I would fit.. He said I think so, if it were my rig I would try it.... So, I tried it, and did some damage. Oh well, I'm not out to purposely put a 65 inch wide rig through a 60 inch gap, but when your talking an inch or less on either side, shit happens.. If I went through again I might make it without a scrape, not very likely though... Or I might really trash something, break a window, who knows.... We went a different way back as to not find out, but I sure as hell didn't send him a bill.




I think of it like the QB suing his blockers if he got sacked.


:lutscher-big:

Then this should be a no sandwich contract.

Thank you Tom and TJ.....you have been trusted friends for years and have ALWAYS helped me out of jams with your help, advice, and knowledge. You know walmart has started selling caskets online (just wanted to pay you older gentleman back) :)
And thank you to everyone that has helped me out in the past Brian, Mike, Jason and the rest of you knuckle heads.

no prob buddy....if one of us don't have the spare parts...one of us knows who does.

Then this should be a no sandwich contract.

No pizza!

I’d rather ya didn’t drink then drive but if you must no beer until the work is done and we are cleaning up.