I have a rare issue that I cant seem to find anyone else has had. The master nissan mechanic I know cant figure it out, the Nissan Engineers say they have never heard of it. It started over a year ago. only happens every now and then. I put the key in, and it turns over and cranks and cranks just fine, but wont try and start at all. I would turn the key ALL the way back, and then back on and try again and then it would start. First they thought it was the key, so they replaced the keys, still happened. So then they thought it was the sensor that senses the keys, so they replaced that, still doing it. Then they just replaced the master control electronic board that runs all the electronics in the car, cant remember what its called, and thought that would surely fix it, and STILL doing it. Now, after replacing the key sensor, now when it does it, i have to completely take the key out and then put it back in and then it will start just fine. really weird. anyone else have this problem ever?

Yeah, that is odd. I would try the key tumbler possibly.

I have actually dealt with something similar before.

Does it do it every time or just once in a while?

Do you have more than one transponder type key on your key ring?

btw, Welcome to the club!

I've never even heard of that problem. That's interesting.

i have two keys but on seperate key chains, not even in the car together at the same time. both nissan made keys. it is really random when it does it. sometimes 2-3 days apart, sometimes several months before it does it again.

I think what Creepy is asking is if you have a transponder key for another vehicle, like spouse's car, or something, on the same keyring.

Sorry, yes I meant from a different car (like a wife/gf's or husband/bf's car)

lol......this proves how lazy i am.

I wouldn't really care at all personally. I mean..... if i could just pull the key out and it works the second time......

SWEET! good enough.


but yeah... thats weird.

well, true I can get it started, but it could be the beginning of a future problem where it might not start at all. rather get it figured out and fixed before that happens. Plus its still be covered under warranty. there is no other keys present at the time at all, from any other vehicle.

I would guess the ignition lock cylinder needs to be replaced, or the ignition switch attached to it.

http://www.courtesyparts.com/kb_search_result.php?keywords=[48700]+\%28n50&cPath=533_534_659_666

I agree with what James said, it might be something with the tumbler. Seeing as how that seems to be the only thing they haven't replaced yet. I agree, while it's a minor nuisance now, its best to find the culprit in case it turns out to be something that could leave you potentially stranded.

thread jack on:

jason. your avatar is horrible.

thread jack off:

yeah dude .....as long as it's under warranty.... milk it

Now when it happens, (when it actually cranks and doesn't start), do you notice the security light still flashing while your cranking?

i believe that is what they replaced already. that is the part the senses the key correct?

i am not sure what light is the security light, but the light that always comes on when it happens that nissan asked me about is the little light that looks like a key. they said it has to be something electrical.

thread jack on:

jason. your avatar is horrible.

thread jack off:



LMAO!! I was waiting to see how long before someone said something. :)

Yep, that's the correct light. I does sound electrical, but could also be RF. Next time it happens, stop and look around and think if there is anything transmitting a signal (cell phone, bluetooth, CB, etc...). A lot of time it's something little that you don't even think about, lol. Remember that the key has a very low power RFID in it and can be bled over by another transmitter. Since Nissan has already replaced the BCM, the tranmitter/key and the receiver/tumbler, there isn't much left, lol.

An example of what I mean is: My shipping scale had been acting up for a few months, sometimes it would just wig out for no reason and the numbers would just jump all over. I couldn't figure out why, I tore it all apart and didn't find anything wrong. So just when I had finally given up and was about to buy a new one, I was talking to my buddy on my cell phone, and I was giving him crap, telling him that it was all his fault and it only acted up when I was talking to him, lol. Then it clicked, maybe it was. So I set my phone across the room and it works just fine. So you just never know, lol.

Wow! You are the man if this works Creepy! If it doesn't work though, you are still the man:)

Cell phone interference messes with all kinds of stuff. They're little, but very powerful transmitters. The phones on GPRS networks, like AT&T, seem to cause more interference, but at least it's not as bad as the old GSM phones. Now that we're on this train of thought, it makes sense. The random occurrences of your problem might be happening when the phone is for some reason communicating with a tower. Not necessarily receiving a call or text, but phones periodically communicate with the tower to confirm the time and make sure there aren't any pending text or voicemail alerts. Is your phone by any chance an AT&T phone?


And I fixed my avatar Stu. :P

Yep, I still have a GSM AT&T, lol.

wow i can't wait to see if that is the problem or not.

It's a stretch, but you never know. I've been hired many times to fix these kinds of things and 90% of the time it's something super simple.

I've had a couple that I figured out for a car audio shop, that had some alarms that would go off all the time in the middle of the night, and they couldn't figure it out. It wouldn't happen ever at the shop, but almost every day in the middle of the night at there house, (even in the garage, lol). I figured them both out though, one was a cop that would shoot his radar gun down the street to catch speeders in the middle of the night, and the other was a amateur radio guy would talk to his buddies in other countries in the middle of the night on a high power transmitter. So you just never know.

DO you have any codes? If you do not have a code, can you get a printout of the history?

Diagnostically, if it does it when other places, like at work, school, when you DON'T have your phone or other fobs, etc...or what ever...its less likely to be from transmitter. (Have you checked these variables?)

Your cell phone, etc, shouldn't make it not work the first time, and always work the second time...but gremlins are gremlins. :D

The tumbler issue, (which I did NOT see as fixed/replaced yet?) is a possibility as mentioned...if it had a stuck ball etc...BUT...

A key issue seems to be that the engine CRANKS but doesn't FIRE.

I don't know of a ignition signal once the key is turned that would include cranking, but not firing.

So...THAT means the issue has to include the part(s) that distinguishes between the starter getting juice, and the plugs getting juice....or the fuel system pumping fuel...or the intake getting air.

IE: Something is screwing with the OTHER parts that are USUALLY automatically engaged upon the start sequence.

Of the things that ALWAYS work on the SECOND try....none really address a bad tumbler per se...

...because I'd think a bad tumbler, etc...by itself....would not result in CRANKING but not firing.

So, as the STARTER is getting the ignition signal/juice...either fuel or air, or the plugs, are then involved.

So - We THEN need a way to make a second try FIX whatever prevented the FIRST try from working.

Its less likely to be a simple break, or the 2-cycle pattern would instead involve any number of random tries before it worked...not 2.

Solenoids for example have that type of cycle...one try moves it one way...if it sticks, the second try will fix it....etc.

Normally, fuel pressure regulators, fuel pumps, and things that need a second shot to get the pressure up, can make it need 2 shots...but, none explain the second key insert variable.

The butterfly is also potentially a 2-cycle movement, open/closed...but mechanical...it would not know if the key was in/out.

So - IF I understand correctly:

1) The engine ALWAYS cranks when you turn the key the first time, but doesn't fire.

2) If you simply turn the key back to off, and then back to start, it ALSO just cranks w/o firing.

3) If you crank it on the first try, remove the key, and then re-insert the key...it ALWAYS cranks AND FIRES/Starts the engine.

4) It ALWAYS starts on that second try, w/o needing a 3rd try, etc.

5) You tried to start it at a remote location, w/o your other fobs or cell phone with you...and it was still a problem as above.

Please confirm the above 5 are always true....it'll help a lot.

:wink-big:

TJ's huge wall of information is causing a huge overload in my brain. Very informative as always good sir.

Well put TJ.

Alright, if we go into those 4 like TJ mentioned, we will find the answer:

1-the intake not getting air: issue can be linked to the TPS. There are a grey and a brown plug on the TPS. The TPS is a electromechanical potentiometer, and it relies on the gas pedal actuating the throttle cable. Nothing is actually done though when the key is being held in the start position. That leaves room for the intake system being clogged. If the engine was clogged while cranking, and then started on second try, then there was never a clog. I think it is save to rule this out.

2-starter getting juice: There are a few sounds that you have to be familiar with when troubleshooting a starter. A metal on metal clank means that the starter bendix is making contact with the flywheel. This will make a single clank, and will not start until hit with a rubber mallet usually, or (if it is a manual transmission), you can roll it a foot or two and pop the clutch. The second sound is the one that you are experiencing. It is the one that means you are cranking, cranking, cranking. There are quite a few things that it can mean, but I am only going to visit three of them.

A-starter is going bad-There could be an internal electric failure, or it could be worn
B-battery is going bad-if your battery is under 10.8 volts while cranking, there is a good chance that it will not start.
C-improper voltage at starter-this could mean B is true, or it could mean that you have loose connection at the starter

From my experience, a starter will crap out within a short period of failure symptoms, so I think that it is safe to rule that out.

From my experience, if a battery has a bad cell, then it might not start an engine. If you crank an engine, you should not try cranking it again for 2 minutes. When a battery is failing, and you are cranking it, if will just get worse and worse and worse every attempt. Since it starts up the second time, I think it is safe to rule that out.

From my experience improper voltage at starter is actually a possibility. However it does seem unlikely considering the battery is cranking the engine over healthily it seems. Not to mention, it ALWAYS cranks. If there was a loose wire, while you are in the start position, it would crank the engine intermittently. Since this is not happening, I think it is highly unlikely it is the voltage at the starter but not willing to rule it out.

3-plugs getting juice

4-fuel system getting fuel.

3-plugs getting juice:

There are a lot of factors to this

A-plugs fouled-if they were fouled, then the truck would not run. I think it is safe to rule that out.

B-Spark plug wires-They carry current when the engine is running, so I think it is safe to rule that out-

C-Distributor cap and rotor-It has spark when it is running, therefore, distributor cap and rotor are not messed up.

D-Distributor-I think this is a serious possibility. The distributor in kinda faulty on these it seems. If it was the distributor condensor was bad, it might cause this type of problem. However, while the condensor is going bad, it usually causes the X to die after 10-60 minutes. It could be that the coil is going bad in the distributorm but this also seems quite likely. I have seen instances where the distributor takes a month to go out, and I have seen situations where it just craps out altogether. Since the distributor actually successfully distributes the power to the respective plugs, then I think it might be safe to rule out because of the typical failure time period that I have seen is far less than what you have already surpassed. There are wires that go to the large plug and you might want to check the voltage of those wires. I would check for voltage less than specified. There is a chance that there is a bad connection on one of the plugs on the wire harness and the voltage is close to what specifications say, but not exactly there. This would explain the starting on second try. I kinda doubt it but thought I would share my thoughts on it.

Fuel system getting fuel-I think it is safe to rule out fuel because of the fact that it starts. You can successfully tell if it is getting fuel by listening to the fuel pump come on while the key is in the ON position. Note this when you are about to start the vehicle. Check for the sound of the fuel pump. If you do not hear it, and it does not start-voila, nailed it. This would cause the symptoms that you said.

Now, all this thinking still leads me to one thing. The fire triangle. In order for there to be fire, you must have fuel, air, and ignition source.

Your problem is improper actuation of certain components while you are operating the ignition switch.

Let's rule out air since it is not electrically controlled.

Let's think about what controls the fuel and spark while you have your key in the run position. You do

The fuel you can eliminate or identify as the problem simply by listening for the fuel pump.

Where I think the problem really lies is in the spark issue. While you are cranking and cranking, there is something that is controlled right there at your ignition switch, that is not right somewhere else. We have already discussed numerous other possibilities, fuel, starter voltage, battery, etc.

This is what I have narrowed it down to:

1-ignition switch,
tumbler/lock cylinder,
a worn ass key (have NISSAN make you one!),

2-voltage at distributor,

3-voltage at starter.

Hope that helps, that is how my troubleshooting mind works.

3-plugs getting juice:

There are a lot of factors to this

A-plugs fouled-if they were fouled, then the truck would not run. I think it is safe to rule that out.

B-Spark plug wires-They carry current when the engine is running, so I think it is safe to rule that out-

C-Distributor cap and rotor-It has spark when it is running, therefore, distributor cap and rotor are not messed up.

D-Distributor-I think this is a serious possibility. The distributor in kinda faulty on these it seems. If it was the distributor condensor was bad, it might cause this type of problem. However, while the condensor is going bad, it usually causes the X to die after 10-60 minutes. It could be that the coil is going bad in the distributorm but this also seems quite likely. I have seen instances where the distributor takes a month to go out, and I have seen situations where it just craps out altogether. Since the distributor actually successfully distributes the power to the respective plugs, then I think it might be safe to rule out because of the typical failure time period that I have seen is far less than what you have already surpassed. There are wires that go to the large plug and you might want to check the voltage of those wires. I would check for voltage less than specified. There is a chance that there is a bad connection on one of the plugs on the wire harness and the voltage is close to what specifications say, but not exactly there. This would explain the starting on second try. I kinda doubt it but thought I would share my thoughts on it.

Fuel system getting fuel-I think it is safe to rule out fuel because of the fact that it starts. You can successfully tell if it is getting fuel by listening to the fuel pump come on while the key is in the ON position. Note this when you are about to start the vehicle. Check for the sound of the fuel pump. If you do not hear it, and it does not start-voila, nailed it. This would cause the symptoms that you said.

Now, all this thinking still leads me to one thing. The fire triangle. In order for there to be fire, you must have fuel, air, and ignition source.

Your problem is improper actuation of certain components while you are operating the ignition switch.

Let's rule out air since it is not electrically controlled.

Let's think about what controls the fuel and spark while you have your key in the run position. You do

The fuel you can eliminate or identify as the problem simply by listening for the fuel pump.

Where I think the problem really lies is in the spark issue. While you are cranking and cranking, there is something that is controlled right there at your ignition switch, that is not right somewhere else. We have already discussed numerous other possibilities, fuel, starter voltage, battery, etc.

This is what I have narrowed it down to:

1-ignition switch,
tumbler/lock cylinder,
a worn ass key (have NISSAN make you one!),

2-voltage at distributor,

3-voltage at starter.

Hope that helps, that is how my troubleshooting mind works.


hate to throw a wrench in the brilliance laid out before me but do 2nd gens have distributors? Thought they were new age coil on plug setups?

And he has stated NISSAN made him new keys already.

I'm not sure why it took 4 pages to deduce he wasn't getting spark, but good job.:anbeten-big:

2nd gens don't have distributors or throttle cables. Coil on plug ignition and drive by wire throttles. Technically, the TPS is located on the accelerator pedal.

Well, I would go back to simple as creepy had suggested and rule out some other interference.

Since no one has seen this before I suspect outside interference as a good place to start.

OK, I spend allot of time at work solving these kinds of issues.

If its outside interference you need to try and "shield" the key from the signal.

Let's try what might be called a ferrite cage. The only thing I can think of is to wrap the key in a metal foil and cover as much as you can and still allow the key in the ignition. Also see if you can have some of it make contact with the metal on the key. Sounds stupid but give it a try.

The foil will hopefully guard the chip from any outside electromagnetic signal screwing with it.

crap!!!!!! the whole TIME I was diagnosing a 1st gen. Screw me. Good call Mac11. Nevermind. Jeez! I spent so much time writing that.

OK, I spend allot of time at work solving these kinds of issues.

If its outside interference you need to try and "shield" the key from the signal.

Let's try what might be called a ferrite cage. The only thing I can think of is to wrap the key in a metal foil and cover as much as you can and still allow the key in the ignition. Also see if you can have some of it make contact with the metal on the key. Sounds stupid but give it a try.

The foil will hopefully guard the chip from any outside electromagnetic signal screwing with it.

wouldn't the likely pace to be getting the interference be the receiver in the truck, not the key?


I have very little knowledge of RFID but that is just what makes sense in my head. I don't trust anything electronic that runs forever without batteries. Thats like cold fusion.

Well, my understanding is that the key has a chip in it. I'm taking a wild ass shot that something may be interfering with the key.

But yes, if there is another receiver then shielding that would be the way to go.

From wikipedia (so take it with a grain of salt)


Radio-frequency identification (RFID) is the use of an object (typically referred to as an RFID tag) applied to or incorporated into a product, animal, or person for the purpose of identification and tracking using radio waves. Some tags can be read from several meters away and beyond the line of sight of the reader.

Most RFID tags contain at least two parts. One is an integrated circuit for storing and processing information, modulating and demodulating a radio-frequency (RF) signal, and other specialized functions. The second is an antenna for receiving and transmitting the signal.

There are generally three types of RFID tags: active RFID tags, which contain a battery and can transmit signals autonomously, passive RFID tags, which have no battery and require an external source to provoke signal transmission, and battery assisted passive (BAP) which require an external source to wake up but have significant higher forward link capability providing great read range.

End Wikipedia Quote.


The RFID chips in our keys are of the passive type, so if there is interference, it's the receiver in the dash that is being affected. If anything, foil on the keyfob is probably going to make it harder for the receiver to read the key's RFID chip. Also, this means it doesn't run indefinitely without a battery, and is not nearly a scary as cold fusion. :)

Well, my understanding is that the key has a chip in it. I'm taking a wild ass shot that something may be interfering with the key.

But yes, if there is another receiver then shielding that would be the way to go.

ya...the key has an RFID chip in it. But what good is it to have a transmitter chip with no receiver? There is a receiver somewhere.

The RFID chips in our keys are of the passive type, so if there is interference, it's the receiver in the dash that is being affected. If anything, foil on the keyfob is probably going to make it harder for the receiver to read the key's RFID chip. Also, this means it doesn't run indefinitely without a battery, and is not nearly a scary as cold fusion. :)

yea they are not eternally on or transmitting, but they never ever need to be powered. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe it's not cold fusion, but it's baby step on the trail to perpetual power/motion.

They are powered by the transmissions from the device that reads the RFID. All radio waves are energy waves, and the RFID chips require so little power that they can gather it from their own antennas. It's horribly inefficient, but it works. It's similar to how EMP kills all electronic devices by overloading them with RF energy, but on a comparitively microscopic scale.

They are powered by the transmissions from the device that reads the RFID. All radio waves are energy waves, and the RFID chips require so little power that they can gather it from their own antennas. It's horribly inefficient, but it works. It's similar to how EMP kills all electronic devices by overloading them with RF energy, but on a comparitively microscopic scale.

baaaaah! flim flam! tin foil helmets! the the end of the world! etc.

baaaaah! flim flam! tin foil helmets! the the end of the world! etc.

LMAO! Big brother's watching, mate.

Hahahahahahaha..... I was waiting for that. Hey if the truck still doesn't start on the first try at least the Aliens can't mess with it :D